Reality

[Bobrobyn_]

Yeah, there's it is quite annoying having to ask someone else to look at your stuff all the time.

~Bob

[tinny]

Cool. I like the idea that you're open to sharing and developing new ideas with others.
Communication has always been something I've struggled with, when either people choose not to say something out of fear of giving away their "better" knowledge, or their awareness is not always up to par with the entire process of what they're doing - not that this is their fault, persay, but the problem of being taught a technique by someone, who says you are doing a decent job of presenting a copy, when according to your own senses are NOT doing a decent job at all shows issues needing attention.

Which just goes to show, from my own p.o.v., how much potential there really is for both parties to learn when the student-teacher dynamic is allowed to flow more freely from one to the other at the appropriate times... Hence my own fixation with group and individual research.

Interesting responses. How far did you take your "travels" and where did you go? How long did that last?

[Bobrobyn_]

I basically just reread what LordArt said, and:

As far as the systematic approach, that was developed out of necessity to be able to translate things back and forth between people. Also for my OWN needs as a scientific mind, I needed a way to analyze what was going on. This is my mind set. So I taught that to my students over the years. I wanted outside confirmation of what I was doing just so I knew I wasn't nuts, so they had to have good senses too. That mind set also rubbed off into the group at large, and has kept the members rather grounded because of it.

That is a good mindset, and is pretty close to mine, and is probably why I've always had a problem...my senses suck at this point time, and I hate to watch something work/not work, and not be able to analize why it works or does not work, which is something I've been slowly working on.

Well, your correct that in most magical systems, that magical senses are rarely developed as a means to practice said system. They seem to show up as a side effect if at all in most ritual practioners. Although to be fair, most of the ones that have been in it a while DO develop them, but in certain cases they just "sense" what is going on rather than seeing it/being able to analyze things.

Yes, and then there are those that have been practicing that said system for years, and have never learned to be able to sense/see what's going on...and sometimes they just seem to do it by "touch" I guess. A lot of us spend too much time on the bigger stuff, without learning the basic stuff, (which can be said about pretty much anything ass well). Which brings me to my question, how long did it take you to learn your magical senses to the point where you could analize what you were doing? How long does it take your students to learn?

~Bob

[LordArt]

Yeah, there's it is quite annoying having to ask someone else to look at your stuff all the time.

Huh? I'm not sure what you mean. Yes, it can be annoying to HAVE to have someone look at your stuff, but honestly, you mostly want them to. It isn't like I or anyone else requires it all the time for the stuff they do(or even most of the time). It's there to make sure than one is grounded. If you want outside opinions on what went wrong (or right) then you really need the group, or if you have an idea that you want help fleshing out, the group is there. Obviously the mainstream experients require the group as well just so you have multiple independant observers/experimenters to get good data from to work with.

How far did you take your "travels" and where did you go? How long did that last?

Well, physically, out to a mage convention in Chicago at the time. I went there since '95 and it stayed there til 2001 which was it's last incarnation in Road Island. There was a reunion in 2003 (I believe) in Vegas. This convention was rather eclectic so it was a good crossroads to see what was possible and for others to see my own stuff. I have of course done lectures, gone to different local events, and of course, talked with people online, but those are the limits to where I have gone physically. Astrally is a different matter, and probably doesn't count in the question you asked.

I'm still comparing notes with people and having discussions from time to time even now. At this point however I'm not expecting to find something new, but if you stop searching you never will, you know? You never know when a different perspective might point out something you missed, and I'm open to that possibility. I'll admit I'm biased and doubtful, but I'm not so far gone as to no longer try.

how long did it take you to learn your magical senses to the point where you could analize what you were doing? How long does it take your students to learn?

Kinda of a loaded question. It took me I would say like 4-5 years to be good enough to not require others to translate for me at all. Now, mind you that is from the beginning of my magical career so the time in doesn't count as much. Also keep in mind that I wasn't under anyone's training and was fumbling in the dark so to speak. Now I would say that I could "see" things earlier on, but didn't understand enough to be able to do analysis, so there is a difference. But even then, it took me like 2 years to even get that far, but again, no training.
As far as my students, the extremes are: almost immediately to a year or two. The normal average is about 2-3 months depending on the individual. Some take to it faster, others slower. In the latter case, if they get TOO far into the training without good enough senses, we'll stop normal teaching to concentrate on their senses. Mind you, we do senses almost immediately and everything we do requires senses practically, so a lot of practice comes in, even if it's just not for senses sake itself. Also keep in mind, as a training tool, we amp our students during training to make finding their senses MUCH easier. I do that all the time at lectures too. Makes my workshops THAT much easier to do for the attendees. Mostly because it ends up amplifying the senses of the individual as well as their magical power, so it's FAR easier to get past the hump of disbelief and self-confidence issues. It's rare that someone's senses are outright broken, so most of the time it's an issue of self-confidence that they can't do it. I'll be the first one to admit that I haven't run on unampped senses in MANY years, but even before amps I developed them. It just took a while. All amping does is to an individual that isn't use to using them, makes them MUCH more noticable and they get use to using them rather quickly, so even when the amps are turned back off, they still know where to find them mentally and use them. Kinda like learning to wiggle your eyebrows. It still takes practice but if you touch the muscles in question it makes it easier to figuire out how to move them. If that makes sense to you.

Again, I hope I answered your questions.

Arthur

[FireEssence]

Art: Just to let you know, Bob's statement was in reference to my post about senses and was more about the fact that when one has untrained senses they pretty much need someone else if they want to find out anything about how well their spell is working etc.

[Bobrobyn_]

FE is right.

~Bob

[LordArt]

Art: Just to let you know, Bob's statement was in reference to my post about senses...

Ah, ok. I got confused. Sorry about that. It happens.

[Obsidian]

Art, you never cease to amaze me. Every question that's put to you, you go above and beyond in answering. One day, I hope we can have a conversation about your magic and practices, in which no information will be too 'outlandish'. Though I imagine that's a long way off, even with if I were an Omni student.

Thanks for this discussion, folks. And Art, I'd like to take this opportunity to apologise for my extremely late response, and thank you for your reply on my post regarding materials.

In your previous post, you mentioned that it's been years since you've senses without the aid of amps. Is this not, in a way, a crutch? Would you be able to do what you do, with the skill that you do it, were someone to take away or disable your amps?

That's a concern to me, that one may become so dependant on something that isn't part of them... Though I know it's a bit different with the higher amps... Do you still use the lower amps (G1, 2, etc.) at higher level's of practice? Do you not fear that you'd be unable to function proficiently if they were removed or shut down?

All that aside, I believe your method for helping students find their senses is an excellent idea. I'm sure you've converted many heretics (in the magically sense, not the religious sense ) to belief... I remember my first amp, ah the days *dreams off*

I wonder, though... Since this has almost developed into a discussion about senses... What are some problems one might encounter?
I'm certain the biggest would be self-doubt (which I suffer from, oh yes), but are there any other notable problems that may afflict the average student?

Ah, to learn some of your techniques... Perhaps one day
Again, though, thanks for all you've shared here. And hey, keep it all comin', yeah?

[LordArt]

One day, I hope we can have a conversation about your magic and practices, in which no information will be too 'outlandish'.

On can hope. It's not LIKELY, but one can hope. That isn't against you, it's just a matter as a matter of history, things have a tendency of getting MORE outlandish, not less so that's a lot of catching up to do.

...thank you for your reply on my post regarding materials

Not a problem.

In your previous post, you mentioned that it's been years since you've senses without the aid of amps. Is this not, in a way, a crutch? Would you be able to do what you do, with the skill that you do it, were someone to take away or disable your amps?

Is it a crutch? Depends how you look at it. If you get into a fight in a street, and you know karate or some other fighting style, and you use it, is it a crutch to use that fighting style and kick their ass, versus just fumbing around like your opponent in comparison? If you think using your training is a crutch, then yes, it's a crutch, otherwise it's simply another tool to do what you do and do it better.

No, I would not be able to do what I do without my amps. Much of what I do at this point is impossible without them. I would be able to do lesser versions without the amps, but it wouldn't have the same effect, and much of it wouldn't translate down well, if at all. My skill might be able to "hack" certain things to function but I would be GREATLY limited in comparison. Much of what I do these days requires the power and precision/resolution (both in casting and in senses) to do what I do.

That's a concern to me, that one may become so dependant on something that isn't part of them... Though I know it's a bit different with the higher amps... Do you still use the lower amps (G1, 2, etc.) at higher level's of practice? Do you not fear that you'd be unable to function proficiently if they were removed or shut down?

Each amp that is aquired superceeds the previous to the point that the previous becomes effectively useless. So no, you don't use the lower amps higher up, they have little to no effect by their nature. The only exception is G5 which should be used with G4s still, and is practical to do so. They eventually get combined into "UG4" via the skills/abilities that G6 gives you.

Only the lower amps are external spells, which can be removed. G7 and higher perminantly alter you so it's not something that can be "removed". Yes, it's a spell that does it while your "cooking", but after that there is nothing to be removed technically. So no, there is no fear at all about someone killing my amp. To kill my amp would to kill me, so it's a non-issue. It would be FAR easier to shut me down (or worse) than to turn off the amp, since it would be prohibitavly complicated to do so. This is one of the main reasons there is a 6 month waiting period for G7a when someone hits ug4. The "process" isn't really reversable, or at least prettily or without serious harm.

Now, if I was shutdown, I DO have contingency plans to remedy that situation, so no, I'm not worried at all.

What are some problems one might encounter?
I'm certain the biggest would be self-doubt (which I suffer from, oh yes), but are there any other notable problems that may afflict the average student?

Self doubt is the biggest issue, yes. Another issue is lack of experience at how to interpret what they are looking at (ie. being able to interpret their own symbolism, or having enough experience/ability for thier senses to have enough detail to make a difference). In rare situations, their senses are "broken", but that's usually an issue of screwing around with things that one shouldn't and breaking themselves and never getting "fixed". That's basically it with senses really. Part of it can also be a lack of knowledge of your senses to do proper interpretations, but that's just a matter of knowledge/experience/skill. In the end, practice DOES make perfect, so practice a lot. Admittedly, it's best to practice with someone else that knows what is going on to BUILD up that self-confidence, but you do what you can.

[StormSeeker]

Motivation, also seems to be a recurring issue with students learning to sense. Or rather, a difficulty generating it.

Admittedly, it's not much fun to realize that you're blind as a bat etc and that it may take weeks or a couple of months of solid regular practice, to change that.

It's an obstacle, and depending on the individual, a lot of people will try to find a short cut around. Or they'll just stand and stare at without doing the work or hope that it will somehow go away or magically change, if they simply ignore it.

Ignoring it really doesn't work, and neither does looking for a short cut. Solid, regular practice and experience is how senses are developed and broadened. Accept no substitute (because whoever's "selling" it probably doesn't have a clue)

People with less initiative or liking for working on their own, tend to find this more of an obstacle than others, as much of the time sensory development practice is worked on alone, offline. As Arthur said, whilst it's definitely more ideal to work with someone who can see/sense what is going on, to help guide you and help build self confidence; that isn't always an option, especially not on a regular basis. So students need to find the motivation to work on their own, and that's not always an easy thing for some folks to do.

But then I think this particular "difficulty" applies to most aspects of magic and magical development (and life in general), not just senses.

And admittedly this is a trend I've noticed more in the psionic/psychic communities more than Omni, but it's cropped up once or twice here before to my knowledge. The psionic communities are exceedingly rife with it though.

I think it's that vicious cycle of: lack of practice, which leads to little or no discernable progress made, which leads to lack of motivation to practice, which in turn leads to lack of practice again...that winds up causing many people to choose to drop out of energy work, or worse: come to believe that they aren't capable of learning This Stuff or that This Stuff isn't real.

It is learnable. You have to commit yourself to learning it though, and invest your time and yourself into doing so.

But that's going off on a tangent

(I've been enjoying following this thread btw, it's turned into quite the interesting discussion.)

[Obsidian]

*laughs* I can so picture someone cooking! Sitting there, waiting, and then DING! They can come out of the spell and look around for the first time.

=)

Putting it the way you did, the amps don't seem like crutches, no. Well, the lower ones still are, because they're seperate from you (like carrying a knife!) but the higher amps, being part of you... They're part of you It's who you are, like your martial arts being ingrained into you.

But to turn off the amp, they're to turn off the person? That's pretty intense. I can understand the 6-month waiting period for that. I certainly wouldn't be willing to hand out permanent, irreversible power without knowing a person intimately first :s

I've heard a little on how the G5 and G6 work, but even knowing that I can't imagine how a G7-spell would cook you up... This is probably for the better, isn't it The internal amp's sound strange (and rather powerful), though I'm unsure from your last post... At your level, is the UG4 used?

Eh, that's getting a bit off topic

Motivation is a pretty big issue, that's true Storm. But in most cases (from my experience), a lack of motivation can be attributed to a fear of not improving... I know that, many a time, I haven't practiced/scanned/etc. and used the excuse that I'm too lazy, or tired, or not motivated enough, blah blah blah... But I believe that I was scared I wouldn't progress. If I didn't try and didn't fail, no-one could accuse me of failing, ya dig?
It's good to see, though, through both of your posts, that there's very little 'physically'(astrally?) standing between anyone and good senses.

This thread was originally about Reality and Dimensions. So I'll ask me a dimensions question

Can one create dimensions? I've heard mention of it, so yeah... And... What sort of properties would one be able to create? If you're controlling the dimension, you'd be able to make it do whatever you liked, ne? Or am I barked up the wrong tree?

How does one interact with different dimensions, universes, realities, etc.? We've got Length, Breadth, Width, Time... The 'scientific' dimensions... And then we have the "I don't think we're in Kansas any more" dimensions, as in different places... But I can't really figure out how it would be different from 'here'.

Let me try and clarify...
What are the differences between this dimension, and another dimension? Someone asked earlier about what one might find in a different universe, I think I understand that... But how would one experience a different dimension?

Eh, I hope you understand those. Having quite the bit of difficulty explaining what I mean.

Hehe, I imagine it would get more outlandish the more advanced you get. I hate being in that situation Trying to catch up with something that's moving faster than I am Something to work towards, though, isn't it.

I need to find one of those short-cuts, hey Storm

[Bobrobyn_]

Motivation is a pretty big issue, that's true Storm. But in most cases (from my experience), a lack of motivation can be attributed to a fear of not improving... I know that, many a time, I haven't practiced/scanned/etc. and used the excuse that I'm too lazy, or tired, or not motivated enough, blah blah blah... But I believe that I was scared I wouldn't progress. If I didn't try and didn't fail, no-one could accuse me of failing, ya dig?
It's good to see, though, through both of your posts, that there's very little 'physically'(astrally?) standing between anyone and good senses.

Actually, that explains why I haven't practiced the last while, pretty well. And actually, sensitivity isn't really off topic, it's really just the perception of reality *is interested to see this topic develop further*

~Bob

[StormSeeker]

Obsidian, if you stick that tongue out one more time I might be forced to find a sharp implement and skewer it.

Wait, didn't you want your tongue pierced? Nevermind then....Maybe I'll just try a number of different tortures instead. Variety keeps life interesting, so they say.

Anyway, I quite agree with you, and I should have clarified what I meant; sorry. Lack of motivation is more of a symptom of another problem, than the problem itself.

And since this was originally "Arthur's thread", I'll leave it to him to answer your questions *sneaks back out*

[Obsidian]

I did have it pierced for a while... Took it out, and now I miss it. Dunno if re-piercing it would be such a good idea, because of the scar-tissue and all...

*backs away to let the post go ahead*

[LordArt]

I actually had a write up a week back but my computer froze before I finished it, and I've been busy since...

*laughs* I can so picture someone cooking! Sitting there, waiting, and then DING! They can come out of the spell and look around for the first time.

Well, it doesn't QUITE work that way. There is an end point where everything is stabilized to be sure, but some of the effects are almost immediate, while some take a while to manifest during the process. The sensing increases are amazing and that shows up within 10 minutes but doesn't finalize til the end.

Putting it the way you did, the amps don't seem like crutches, no. Well, the lower ones still are, because they're separate from you (like carrying a knife!) but the higher amps, being part of you... They're part of you It's who you are, like your martial arts being ingrained into you.

Lower ones still aren't. A crutch means using something to help you do what under normal cercomstances you should be able to do without it. A person using a crutch because their leg is broken, is using the crutch to replace the functionality of the leg til their leg gets better and they can stand on their own two feet again. A metaphorical crutch of a person using drugs to escape reality because they can't handle it is also valid because they SHOULD be able to handle reality but won't for whatever the reason. An amp isn't a crutch because it's not letting you do something that you normally would be able to do, it's letting you do something that you CAN'T do otherwise. There is a difference. Is using an airplane a crutch? Can you fly normally without one?

But to turn off the amp, they're to turn off the person? That's pretty intense. I can understand the 6-month waiting period for that. I certainly wouldn't be willing to hand out permanent, irreversible power without knowing a person intimately first :s

If somehow you were able to turn off the amp, you don't turn off the person at all. It's just a matter of the complication to TURN off the amp by an external force, it would be easier to turn off the person. As an example (mind you this is NOT how the higher amps work at all, but the complication issues should show the point I'm trying to make), if you were injected with radium (which is sometimes done for certain medical procedures), how hard would it be to get it all back out? First you'd have to flush the entire blood supply in your body, then you'd have to start hunting for all the particles that are left in the person's body, one spec at a time. Sounds complicated doesn't it? My point is, one would have to have a VERY intimate knowledge of the particular amp, it's workings, and the person's workings it's on to even ATTEMPT turning it off. That's a LOT of time and trouble for such a thing and generally it's not worth it.

And yes, the 6-month wait is really needed. There is even a push from within Omni to stop "handing out" such Amps at all and lower the "power cap". Meaning, make the student truly earn it, rather than it be just part of the training. I see their point, but there are other issues to consider such as the fact that then the students who are done their training will be useless for the higher ended research. The counter argument is that if they weren't able to earn g7 in the first place, how would they be useful for research? After a certain point, you have to earn all the amps anyways, so the debate continues...

I've heard a little on how the G5 and G6 work, but even knowing that I can't imagine how a G7-spell would cook you up... This is probably for the better, isn't it The internal amp's sound strange (and rather powerful), though I'm unsure from your last post... At your level, is the UG4 used?

If you truly understood how g5 and g6 work, you might be able to fathom how g7 does it's job, or at least what is happening. As far as coming up with a way of MAKING that happen is something completely different. (One of the current students actually figured out UG4 even though he's newly G5 (bright guy), so he knows in THEORY how it works quite well, but can't build a functional prototype because to actually make it work, you need the other skills that come with g6.) So knowing how something works and being able to build it is TWO different things. Which is partially the reason why I don't mind my "arthurisms" as much, even with newbie students simply because the information is interesting, but they really can't do anything with it til they are skilled enough to do it in the first place, in which case they are ready for it anyways.

Yes, G7+ is rather strange, and rather powerful is an understatement, although we downplay it these days as with most of the amps. It's all a matter of your personal point of reference.

As far as using UG4, no, it's not used at all once you hit g7(It has been tried..doesn't do anything really). Each amp normally supersedes the previous completely. G7 and higher build on the previous because they aren't reversible technically. UG4 is the highest of the external amps but directly leads into why the "internal" amps work if you understand it's theory of operation, which is true for the full progression of amps anyways. Each one lead to the next. G5 didn't, that was more out of left field, but lead to all the amps above it after a fashion, just because of one simple truth about how it works(or rather the theory behind it). And as strange as the g7 amp sounds, it's actually quite "natural", it's just the means that it's being implemented isn't. As is the omni way, we are just taking advantage of natural effects that are already there.

.. But I believe that I was scared I wouldn't progress. If I didn't try and didn't fail, no-one could accuse me of failing, ya dig?

That is the biggest cop out excuse. You HAVE failed and I'm accusing you of it. How's that. By choosing NOT to try, you chose failure and don't delude yourself into thinking otherwise. To try and to fail is human and is worthy of respect. No one is expected to succeed every time and at all things. You can't achieve ANYTHING without trying. Failure can teach one sometimes MORE than success. Learning what NOT to do is EXTREMELY valuable. Success while nice, doesn't teach you as much. Yes, it shows what works, but doesn't help you find other ways unless you have the experience of what didn't. And in the end, that's what this is all about, personal experience. Having skill or lack of it is greatly based on personal experiences, as is with everything in life. Don't go through life with the idea that if you don't try, you didn't fail. You will never achieve anything in life then. Don't be that guy. (Yes, that's a pet peeve of mine)

Can one create dimensions? I've heard mention of it, so yeah... And... What sort of properties would one be able to create? If you're controlling the dimension, you'd be able to make it do whatever you liked, ne? Or am I barked up the wrong tree?

Can one create a dimension, TECHNICALLY, yes. In practicality no. You have to find the "mass" to do so SOMEWHERE. Then you have to find a way of moving it, etc. Have fun! I would say it's possible, but prohibitively expensive in required power/ability, let alone finding the mass to do it with. That isn't coming out of no-where you know. So yeah, your barking up the wrong tree. It's far easier to create "pockets" then creating a dimension. Pockets aren't actually creating anything, it's just taking the existing fabric and "poking" it so that there is only one way in, hence the term.

Dimensional physics on the level of what your talking about is rather complicated and isn't easily explained and certainly not in a forum post. For any of it to make any sense you need to have a better background in the lower end concepts even to start explaining it. But to answer your question in simple terms, if you were controlling a dimension, you still are limited to what that dimension is able to do, so no, you can't do whatever you like in it. The dimension itself would have had to be originally with those kinds of properties for you to be able to do such.

How does one interact with different dimensions, universes, realities, etc.? We've got Length, Breadth, Width, Time... The 'scientific' dimensions... And then we have the "I don't think we're in Kansas any more" dimensions, as in different places... But I can't really figure out how it would be different from 'here'.

This starts to get into the complicated part of things. There are more dimensions even in this universe than mainstream science deals with normally. They just aren't easily accessible, or more accurately, easily observable on the macro scale that we live in. You start talking to physicists about entanglement (which is a well proven thing these days) and you start seeing that there is more to things than just 3D+time. And that's the point, is taking advantage of the other dimensions that are there and how they interact with others. Good example, think how looking in a mirror how the dimension of up and down is different from left and right. If you look in the mirror, left and right reverse themselves but up and down does not. That is a dimensional property. Depth has a property of making things larger or smaller via the observer (which is what we are talking about here). Time seems linear and single directional, but anyone who does magic knows that one can still access other points in time with their spells to cause change. So observing dimensional properties gets complicated, not to mention figuring out the properties of the other dimensions that ARE there but aren't as obvious. The "spatial" dimensions seem obvious and straight forward but time isn't. Magically, we know that time doesn't work the way we observe by living in it. It's far easier to understand a system from outside the system than understanding it from within the system, because your not limited to how that system wants to display itself. Although, admittedly, just because one can observe from the outside doesn't make it make sense either, but at least you have more of a fighting chance. Ok, I'm getting off topic here to a point. Other realities/universes are similar to exact to completely different depending on where you go. A good example is when your in the astral. If there is an object there, you can see all sides of it can't you? In "normal" reality, you are limited to how the light bounces off so you get a 2D image. (Yes, I know there are technical reasons why you observe it that way that have nothing to do with dimensional properties, but I'm trying to make a point of how things can be different). Certain places can be more easily affected by thought than others (ie. how easily your magic works on them). In THIS reality, your magic manifests as a series of coincidences but the result is the same. Elsewhere, such as the astral, things simply appear from your will. There is everything in between too. I'm not going to sit here and go over every observation, but I hope that gives you SOME idea.

... But how would one experience a different dimension?

If you refer to a "different dimension" as not 3D+time, then it has to be abstracted to even have a chance of dealing with it. (Unless your a very skilled mathematician and can deal with observing greater than 3 spatial dimensions without going nuts). To get an idea of how to abstract it, think of what you see in front of you. You live in a 3D universe, but you observe it in 2D. You cheat because you have 2 observers (eyes) and then your brain automatically does the calculations to "simulate" 3D observation. It's a hack, but it works and it's the best option for the limitations that this realm presents. To understand higher dimensions, you have to "ignore" the other dimensions that aren't as relevant to what your doing so you can observe those higher dimensions in the number of dimensions that mentally you CAN handle. Sort of like explaining how different realms are in relation to each other. My water and oil example works well as an abstracted view, but we see those water and oil droplets in our head as we know 3D. The reality is, if you go in one direction IN our normal 3D, you will NEVER get to those other realms. Why? Because their relation ISN'T in 3D, it's in a different set of 3D that you can't observe except magically (there might be scientific equipment that can observe it but I'm not that cool to have access to it. They are doing a lot of funky stuff these days). So now your talking 6D+time. And there are others too. So this gets complicated REAL quick. (So now you might understand why theories like string theory are saying there are at least 11 dimensions).
As far as if you are referring to "different dimensions" as another realm, well, it would be like anything else while astral traveling, up to your own symbolism to observe it.

Well, I hope I answered your questions as usual. I think I probably raised more questions than answered, but it goes that way some times.